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| ===What is terrorism=== | | ===What is terrorism=== |
| [http://www.couchsurfing.org/group_read.html?gid=528&post=2029336 What is terrorism], Spanning from 2008-12-03 to 2008-12-19 | | [http://www.couchsurfing.org/group_read.html?gid=528&post=2029336 What is terrorism], Spanning from 2008-12-03 to 2008-12-19 |
| From the opening of the thread, a very lively on-topic discussion develops. Tension builds up between Maya and Zeemax. I failed to clearly identify who started it. It's rather subtle. Gulen does not seem to take sides in this clash until she gets involved with Maya's personal message. | | From the opening of the thread, a very lively on-topic discussion develops. Tension builds up between Maya and Zeemax. I failed to clearly identify who started it. It's rather subtle. Gulen does not seem to take sides in this clash until she gets involved with Maya's personal message. |
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| It looks like this is how it starts and goes on :
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| "Posted December 11th, 2008 - 11:10 pm by MAYA Geneva from Geneva, Switzerland
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| In the aftermath of the Mumbai massacre, Indians and Pakistani each accuse the other of having masterminded this drama. CHOWK - a Website where Hindus and Muslims regularly insult each other and accuse their respective countries of the worst crimes - sometimes gives space to a voice of reason. Gnani Sankaran is a popular Indian- Tamil writer. He examines the roots of violence in India and leaves Pakistan's possible involvement aside. He tries, like the saying goes, "to clean his own backyard" first.
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| I believe the article is worth reading, but the comments in CHOWK are dismal.
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| (former and current CHOWK associates, please abstain from commenting if you do not want me to repeat some of the worst insults I found on the site...)
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| To know more about:
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| Gnani Sankaran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnani
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| Babri Masjid (Babur’s Mosque): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babri_Mosque
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| L.K, Advani: http://en.wikipedia.orgwiki/Lal_Krishna_Advani
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| The Gujarat massacres:
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| http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/2002/india/gujarat-sumrec.pdf
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| N.D. Modi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narendra_Modi
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| Praveen Togadia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praveen_Togadia
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| How to Stop Terrorism: Appeal to Advani
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| Gnani Sankaran December 9, 2008
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| Every channel worth its TRP has started a movement against terror in India.
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| They declare during every alternate commercial break that, we the people won’t tolerate terror anymore; we will stop it. We won’t allow it to happen anymore. We will take to task any and every politician who is soft on terror.
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| Nice and well meaning words, no doubt. But can we stop terrorism by candle light rallies? No. we will only add to traffic chaos for the common man. If the politicians or trade unions affect traffic with their rallies, we will move the Supreme Court against them. If our candle rallies are denied permission, well we will still move the Supreme Court to allow them.
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| Will the channels organize parallel intelligence gathering agencies, will they start funding of commandos in every star hotel, will they run joint coordination committees for the three services... well, in short, will they take over the governance of the country from politicians to stop terrorism? Impossible. If they can first succeed in making the voters of south Mumbai (where Taj and Trident are located) cast their votes without fail in the next elections, it would be a formidable achievement by itself. The number of voters, who did not vote at all, was double the votes of the winning candidate there during last lok sabha elections.
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| Let us leave the syrupy sentiments and patriotic jingoisms out and get down to the real business of stopping terrorism. That is the task of the government and those who run it. All that the channels, media, print and otherwise, you and I can do is to only function as pressure groups to make the government and those who run it to do their jobs properly.
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| And to be a pressure group or a lobbyist is not all that easy either. It demands responsibility from us first to understand the system, secondly to assess how it works and thirdly to demand accountability from those running it and fourthly to know what questions to ask and fifthly to mobilize public opinion in favour of issues and not sentiments or rhetoric.
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| Do we first really understand what terrorism is all about.
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| Let me repeat- terrorism is not a mindless act of violence by non- thinking individuals or groups. It is also politics - politics by other means.
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| It is the politics of the disgruntled who are not or cannot be accomodated by the system which is disgruntled with them. The role of the state, as Karl Marx famously said, is to mediate between the various sections of the society at war with each other. When the state fails in that endeavour, the war is on. The state also enters into war with its citizens in the name of citizens. It becomes a bystander in wars between citizens. It also becomes a partisan with one section against the other. Terrorism , in short is, non-democratic politics.
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| And when the democratic politics is weakened by self serving and corrupt politicians and bureaucracy, terrorism is inevitable. The corrupt politician- bureaucrat alliance uses terrorism to further its selfish agenda of looting by perpetuating fear among its citizens and strengthening its military arm at huge costs to the public.
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| India is now in the brink of this danger. Mumbai terror attacks are being used by the state through the media to escalate the feeling of insecurity among people and thus cooerce their consent for spending huge amounts for expansion of specialised armed forces throughout the nation. The fauji worship has reached a nauseating peak, with no critical questions against their working methods.
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| But terrorism cannot be fought or prevented by mere expansion of our firepower. To attack it, we need to attack the tools of terrorism and roots of terrorism.
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| One of the primary tools of terrorism is corruption. The 1993 blasts in Mumbai were done with RDX smuggled from outside the country. The corrupt customs officer aided the smuggling. Issuing of identity cards to thousands of fishworkers may not be sufficient if only those ID cards could be obtained for anybody for an extra payment.
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| About a decade ago, the killers of Rajiv Gandhi and EPRLF leader Padhmanabha entered Tamilnadu only through the sea route. They could not have executed the murders without the support of a corrupt government machinery at every check post and a handful of local tamils who showed solidarity to the Tamil cause and abetted the crime without even being aware of it.
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| That takes us to the roots of terrorism. While changed circumstances now help us with USA threatening Pakistan to behave, We need to look internally within our own realm. Can terrorism survive without a local support? Punjab showed it cannot. And what brings local support to a terrorist act? What can we do to wean such support away?
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| Most of the terror attacks since independence can easily be classified into two categories - religious and secular. The secular attacks are by the various insurgent groups of the north east and the Maoists of the red corridor from east to south. Here the issues involved are socio economic.
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| The religious attacks relate geographically only to Kashmir and Punjab. (The khalistan terrorism is now a thing of the past, thanks to the inclusive democratic practices that weaned popular support to terrorism.) And the terror acts in Kashmir in the name of jihad have their origin in two facts of history. The creation of Pakistan by the wily British and the self determination aspirations of Kashmiris. Though kashmiri self determination issue is overshadowed by the religious colour painted by Pakistan's own aspirations to annexe it, the terror acts of jihad relating to Kashmir never spilled over the boundaries of Kashmir.
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| The phenomenon of bomb blasts in buses, trains and markets happening anywhere through length and breadth of India is of recent origin. To be precise just 15 years old.
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| It is a post Babri Masjid demolition development.
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| And Babri Masjid demolition has been the first biggest terror act since independence. Our refusal to acknowledge it as terror act has led us down the treacherous path of terrorism upto Mumbai attacks. Various political parties and the media, print and electronic continue to condemn babri masjid demolition but have never categorised it as an act of terrorism. The post Godhra genocidal violence of Gujarat have been widely condemned but not categorised as acts of terrorism.
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| In both instances, leaders of a particular political formation have led from the front, inspiring and goading the emotionally charged followers to indulge in acts of arson, vandalism and killing. In both instances, police forces have been silent spectators. And remember, both instances did not require the help of specialised commandos to stop the acts of terror. Existing police forces were sufficient enough to stop the acts but they did not stop. And to this day, no politician or bureaucrat has been held accountable for these acts of terror.
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| Right from Babri masjid demolition, through Mumbai blasts, Gujarat carnage, bus and train blasts, attack on parliament, temple etc. the media has not vociferously demanded resignations of politicians from ministries. Only for attack on Hotel Taj, the media cried from the burning rooftop and extracted three heads, two home ministers and one chief minister. As usual no bureaucrat gets such treatment.
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| While we are demanding (rightly) Pakistan to hand over the wanted terrorists hiding in its soil, we have done nothing about the terrorists living among us, walking around freely and participating in our democratic processes.
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| Let us remember, no jihadi terror can succeed in this country without the help of few locals. And until Babri masjid demolition, it was impossible to recruit Muslims from any part of this country to fight Pakistan's war in Kashmir.
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| With Babri Masjid demolition, for the first time, the average Muslim Indian was baffled, confused, worried and afraid. A big political party participating in electoral democracy was openly against the community, demolishing its masjid in the name of Ram, justifying such vandalism. And the other big political party was an impotent accomplice to all this. The insecurity created in the mind of an average Muslim at this juncture can never be fully understood by anyone belonging to any majority religion, culture or language in any part of the world. The condition was ripe for hatemongers and extremists to recruit.
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| One should say it is a wonderful tribute to the belief and faith of average Muslim Indians in the democracy of India that despite the fear and insecurity created by Babri Masjid demolition and Gujarat carnage, only a few tens of them among several millions became recruits to the cause of terror. Their primary concerns continue to be roti, kapada aur makkan.
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| But the average Muslim Indian continues to be under psychological pressure everyday watching the terrorists of Babri Masjid demolition and Gujarat carnage gaining in power in the democratic structure of India. Last year, evidence emerged from Tamilnadu about sangh parivar's front organisation Hindu munnnai indulging in acts of vandalism of its own temples and blasting RSS offices to fix blame on rival religions and movements. This year Malegaon blasts have shown the true colours of saffron clad activists. But the BJP leaders and future prime ministers are openly defending them. What does this mean to the average Muslim Indian who is already plagued by poverty and illiteracy?
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| And Let us remember, that terrorism in India in the name of Jihad will never come to an end, unless we recognise and punish the terrorists of Babri masjid demolition.
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| To put it bluntly, the onus of stopping terrorism in India rests with L.K.Advani today. The buck stops there.
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| Advani must atleast now confess. He must tell the nation that demolition of Babri Masjid was an act of terror by his comrades in arms. He must acknowledge that the Gujarat carnage executed with the support of the chief Minister Narendra Modi and his police force was another act of terror by the sang parivar. He must declare that everyone responsible for killings and arson will be brought before law. He must apologise to the nation for practising the politics of terror in the name of democracy. He must come forward to announce that his party will rebuild the babri Masjid.
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| Such an act of remorse and self purification by Advani alone will convince the Muslim Indians of this country that the democracy here will never fail them. The majority moderates and peace lovers among Muslim Indians will find the job of convincing the angry and disturbed post- babri masjid- demolition generation that India is theirs.
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| And this is the only way Indian polity can emulate USA or UK in democratic practice of having a two party system of conservatives and liberals of the right. India has the added advantage of having a powerful pressure group of left.
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| It is time BJP dropped its religious communal agenda, reformed itself to emerge as the republican party of India. And to achieve this, Advani must apologise to this nation before facing the next elections.
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| And the electronic channels, I hope are listening, have a job cut out for them. In their resolve to stop terror and to take to task any and every politician abetting terror, they must first appeal to Advani to hand over Modis and Togadias. Will they?
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| Source: http://www.chowk.com/articles/how-to-stop-terrorism-appeal-to-advani-gnani-sankaran.htm
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| Reactions to the article :
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| http://www.chowk.com/interacts/15115 (first comments last)
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| Posted December 12th, 2008 - 1:43 am by Zeemax from Karachi, Pakistan (Permalink)
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| Good Morning Maya,
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| (former and current CHOWK associates, please abstain from commenting if you do not want me to repeat some of the worst insults I found on the site...)
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| Meaning???
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| Since I don't believe there's any ex-Chowk associate other than me on this forum, I find the above "if you do not want me to repeat some of the worst insults I found on the site..." quite baffling. Do you mean repeating the insults hurled by Pakistanis on that forum? Or is it a warning you'll use the same insults against me ??? Must be (hopefully) the former ;-)
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| Anyway, I guess a sample link would do no harm:
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| raping kashmiri:
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| Topic started by Cobra on Dec 7, 2008
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| Match this!
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| (P.S. 'nazuk, pari jaisi kashmir ki kali' means 'delicate, fairy-like flower bud of Kashmir')
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| Posted December 12th, 2008 - 9:49 am by MAYA Geneva from Geneva, Switzerland (Permalink)
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| Male chauvinist pigs's stuff, dear Zeemax, acerbated and heigthened by the hate the brothers on the Indian sub-continent have for each other.
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| Comments by the mob. Every country has its mob, but I guess stuff like this on the Net would probably cause the closing of such a website in our countries.
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| Especially this kind of comment:
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| http://www.chowk.com/interacts/14987/1/0/16#399291
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| #276 Posted by zeemax on November 19, 2008 10:47:53 pm
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| Eating pig meat was forbidden because it is the only animal which consumes its excrement. No amount of farming can prevent the pig from consuming its excrement.
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| The only other animal which consumes its excrement is a hindu.
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| This is why, in another thread, I called you Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. While gentle and kind, intellectual Zeemax fosters friendship and understanding with CS members from the Western world, another Zeemax kindles the racist hate flames and attack the enemy where is most vulnerable: on religious grounds.
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| And doing do, you soil your own beliefs. If you have the slightest notions about why Judaism and Islam forbid the consumption of pigs, you should know this:
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| In Judaism, an animal is only kosher only if it both chews its cud and has cloven hooves. However, the pig is the only animal to have cloven hooves but doesn't chew its cud: its external aspect makes it appear kosher, while it is not, making it a symbol of hypocrisy.
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| Qur'an 16:115.
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| He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
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| Qur'an 2:173.
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| He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
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| Muslims consider the eating of pork to be forbidden, with a limited exception to avoid starvation. Eating camels is forbitten as well. But it is accepted that bedouin eat camel.
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| Halal is to Muslims what kosher is to Jews.
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| Now where does this stupid notion that pigs consume their excrements come from? I only can guess:
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| The ritual slaughter of animals consists of a swift, deep incision with a sharp knife on the neck, cutting the jugular veins and carotid arteries of both sides but leaving the spinal cord intact. I have read that Islam forbids the consumption of animal blood because it contains uric-acid. From there to drinking urine there is only a small step.
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| That our learned Zeemax is fostering hate among the mob on CHOWK while he tries to solve the Mumbai mystery all by himself on CS is something I cannot accept.
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| Bait on CHOWK and switch to Western ideas on CS when not talking about Mumbai. When I see people safely sitting in their trenches shooting racist remarks, I move on and let them rot there.
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| But exposing others for their racist and chauvinistic views is not something I enjoy doing. this is why I have asked you, Zeemax, to abstain from commenting here. You took it as a bait, and here we are.
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| But frankly, what Gnani Sankaran has written should appease any Pakistani who feels unjustly accused. It should also make Indians think about the recent past and help put the events into a perspective India has to re-examine.
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| And for the rest of us: We should learn that things are not simple and the situation is explosive. The less we meddle, the better.
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| I do not think that this article is calling for comments. It is simple an appeal to everyone not to come to rush conclusions.
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| Sorry Zeemax, you asked for it.
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| Maya
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| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_restrictions_on_the_consumption_of_pork
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| Posted December 12th, 2008 - 11:01 am by Zeemax from Karachi, Pakistan (Permalink)
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| Haha Maya , yes that was one of my recent gems! It was Tit-for-Tat for that persisting debate ridiculing Islam. Did you notice three people welcomed me back after that remark?
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| I still drop in from time to time when I see someone who needs to be hammered. But if you drill further in that site, you'll find many more in its archives by the great 'Zeemax'.
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| Unfortunately, this is the only way to interact on that site. To trade insults. This is why I left it. Not because I'm not capable of hurling insults (in fact I was one of the best), but I got tired of it.
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| All this began only after 9/11. Before that, if you look at my interacts and articles on the same site, I was totally for the universal love and brotherhood stuff with Indians.
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| By the way, I'm still very well respected on that site despite all that, and people keep asking to me come back. Many of the serious posters of Chowk are regulars on my blog.
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| Kudos to your googling abilities though ;-)
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| Posted December 12th, 2008 - 11:04 am by Zeemax from Karachi, Pakistan (Permalink)
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| ... contd ... what I said was not totally non-factual though. Cow Urine is worshiped in most of India. I have nothing against the practise though.
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| Posted December 12th, 2008 - 11:35 am by MAYA Geneva from Geneva, Switzerland (Permalink)
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| Yes, I did drill further.
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| Trade insults with the mob?
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| Every country has its mob. Mine as well. I am not trying to change that, we have to live with it, hoping that reason prevails. Reason won't prevail if your only answer to insults is insults. Doing this, you betray the inheritance of Jinnah: to please the plebs, you run with the mob.
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| Jinnah had class and a vision. You have neither.
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| Is that worthy of the important Pakistani official you are?
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| Universal love and brotherhood stuff?
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| The word "stuff " indicates how much you went in the past and go now along these ideas...
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| What about deleting your racist remarks on CHOWK?
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| In the meantime, we can discuss this - if you wish - off CS and by private mail. You have my address, you did not give me yours, but I found it anyway.
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| Posted December 12th, 2008 - 11:40 am by MAYA Geneva from Geneva, Switzerland (Permalink)
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| It was non-factual: pigs "eat excrements" - meaning "drink their own urine"?
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| excreemnts= faeces:a waste product from an animal's digestive tract expelled through the anus (or cloaca) during defecation.
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| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excrements
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| No further comment."
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| ===Polanski=== | | ===Polanski=== |
This page is meant to gather data on the case of the deletion of Zeemax (Pakistan)' profile. The aim is to figure out if the deletion was appropriate and, if it was not, do have some backing to a rehabilitation by the MDST.
TO MAYA AND ZEEMAX: You are both encouraged to add, reformulate and delete anything you feel relevant to. I will hack mercilessly into it if I feel it is done unfairly. Have no restraint, it is close to impossible to delete something in a wiki.
TO MODERATORS: If you edit, log in first. I will not revert your edits without checking with you first. But if you don't log in first, I will not see it is done by you.
Sitarane
Chronology of the enquiry
28/10/09 - Julien contacts Zeemax that sends him a long email. This email can be disclosed and will be, to anyone that asks. Some of it is quoted below.
08/11/09 - Creation of the wiki page. It was advertised publicly on the moderation subgroup of International Politics and privately to Zeemax and Maya.
08/11/09 - Julien gets an email from Maya, with permission to refer.
Chronology of the facts
I put the source in the beginning of each line. Keep the source in mind while reading a line. I have no information from MDST at all and will never have. MDST just doesn't talk.
BACKGROUND: In the thread What is terrorism, Maya and Zeemax get involved in a personal fight.
- From the thread: Maya calls Zeemax by his given name, that is not apparent on his profile and that he claims he wants to stay confidential. She also states the quality of his occupation in a very vague way.
- Maya knew the name through previous email exchange with Zeemax, and claims to have seachengined his occupation.
- From the thread: User Guleny, that was active in the thread without taking sides in the clash, expresses her disagreement with the disclosing of personal details as a mean of discredit.
- From the thread: Maya says to Guleny that she will send her a private message to clarify.
- From Maya's email: Maya sends a private message to user Guleny that mention the name and phone number of Zeemax, as part of the copy paste of a long email exchange between Maya and Zeemax two month before (september).
- I suppose that Maya had the intention to show that her and Zeemax used to be in good terms. Gulen had been neutral in the thread, but so had a lot of others.
- From the Thread: Guleny acknowledges publicly the receipt of the mails and expresses her opposition to it.
- From the thread: Zeemax publishes his given and family name, along with email, phone number and physical address. "to make it known that her underhand tactics in attacking my person won't defeat me"
- Zeemax says in an email to Julien (Moderator) : Dec 2008, Zeemax does a MDST complaint about the publishing and forwarding of personal details by Maya.
[1]
- Maya mentioned Zeemax's given name in the public thread.
- Zeemax siaetJM: MDST reply on 17 Dec 2008 that they "have issued a very serious warning to the member in question."
- Zeemax thanks them and receives another response on 19 Dec 2008 saying "Indeed, your personal information may not be revealed on the CS except with your explicit consent. Thank you also for refraining from further contact with Maya."
- From Maya's email: Maya gets a formal message from MDST telling her off for sharing member information to a third party. It is very obviously a pre-written answer. Maya claims that the one she sent the message to was user Guleny.
- From Maya's email: Following that Maya sends 3 messages to explain to MDST the circumstances, and to try to show that in fact, she was the one offended.
- From Maya's email: Maya receives another MDST message, with the same content but this time personalized. The email mentions that Zeemax had sent his contact details to other people than her.
- The latter probably refers to Zeemax's posting of his details on the thread.
- From Maya's email: She keeps communicating about Zeemax to the MDST.
- Zeemax siaetJM: Zeemax gets a warning from MDST (date undetermined) advising him "to refrain from either addressing or referring to Maya in any post"
- From Maya's email: 25 jan. Maya receives a mail from MDST saying that future reference to her person in Zeemax's post will be considered harassment. They suggest her to let them know if that happens. They also say that if she refers to him, whether in response to his posts or not, they will not help her. In that message, there is no mention that the penalty for referring to Maya is deletion of profile.
- Why the gap of one month?
- Zeemax siaetJM: Zeemax respects the advice all through the year. Mainly by falling out of sight.
- From the thread: October 17th, 2009 - 8:56 am, Zeemax posts this, where he refers to Maya. He mentions a medieval death penalty in relation to her temporary ban from the group.
- From Maya's emails: Soon after that, Maya sends the MDST a message containing only a link, not to the post mentioning her, but to this post, that is a comment on the post mentioning her by another user.
- FMe: Maya receives a reply from MDST full of happy talk about how it is difficult to get along with each other but that we must all try our best, blah blah blah... This emails does not mention the deletion of Zeemax.
- Zeemax siaetJM: "the day after posting the reference to Maya" Zeemax' profile is deleted from CS.
The issue concentrates on two threads:
What is terrorism
What is terrorism, Spanning from 2008-12-03 to 2008-12-19
From the opening of the thread, a very lively on-topic discussion develops. Tension builds up between Maya and Zeemax. I failed to clearly identify who started it. It's rather subtle. Gulen does not seem to take sides in this clash until she gets involved with Maya's personal message.
Polanski
Polansky. Sept/Oct 2009 Span irrelevant.
In this thread, Zeemax does not participate in the discussion. Maya gets challenged by the moderation and receives a second warning which entails a 2 weeks ban. Zeemax only comments on that event and when Maya, banned from the group for 2 weekes, is not present in the group, in two consecutive short but off-topic posts.
Reliability
The only sources are the threads and my private communication with the people involved. Through careful lies or bending of the truth, it is possible that one or more of the involved people skew the picture. I will assess the likeliness of that around the end.
Argument
Zeemax claims he did not host nor surf
- The website states, when opening a new account, that it is not necessary to host or surf to be the owner of an account
Zeemax is guilty of the charges
- It is my feeling that the "do not post the letters M, A, Y, and A one after another" was a very inadequate sentence.
- He was not told that not respecting the sentence would result in deletion penalty.
Moderation
It has been argued that the forum was unmoderated at the time of the first thread, and that the only recourse was MDST. In facts, there was one moderator at the time. It is true that he never posts, but, if nobody tried to get a reaction from him first, going straight to MDST was a bad idea.
It can be argued that MDST should have first gotten in contact with the moderator before acting at all. It might have been done, but I know that in more recent deletion cases they bypass even active moderation.
